Momentum Episode 21:
Growth Marketing with Bulut Akışık

What is growth marketing and how does it differ from traditional marketing as we think of it? What role does it play in the customer journey as companies try to convert millions of impressions into actionable paying users?

Today we'll be talking to Jotform's VP of growth marketing, Balut Akashik. Welcome to Momentum, a podcast by Jotform where we talk about technology, productivity tips, insights, and best practices that help us move forward in business and in life. Let's get started.

Welcome everyone. I am here today with Balut Akashik, which I hope I pronounced correctly. He is the VP of growth here at Jotform and thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show today.

Well, I'm a big fan of the show. Thank you, Mike. I get to hear like every episode, being completely honest. So it's a pleasure to be here with you.

I figured we dive right in. For those who might not be familiar, which actually included me before I started at Jotform, I worked in advertising but I wasn't familiar with the term growth marketing. You're VP of growth and we have a marketing team, a distinct marketing team based in San Francisco, but you are VP of growth, growth marketing. Could you talk a little bit about the distinction between growth and regular marketing?

Yeah, it's actually a perfect question because it's the most frequent question that I get from anybody that starts at Jotform. I'm not the only one, correct? Like also in many other podcasts because someone looks from outside and says there's a marketing team and there's a growth marketing team. So actually it's very clear. Let me put it this way: think about the user funnel, focus on the pirate metrics like acquisition, activation, retention. There's this long funnel.

Traditional marketing mainly finishes its job after awareness and acquisition stage. In growth, we need to handle every single part of the user journey from awareness to a converted user. We need to be active everywhere. It needs to be fed with data, scalable, scientifically provable. The way I like to put it in a single sentence is we find new users to jump on, but it never is just about awareness because the world is a much more noisy place.

You need to be present in every stage of the user funnel. It doesn't end once a user hears about Jotform, visits our website, or signs up. It never ends. We need to be there at every stage with different assets, all tracked by data. It's like an engineering and marketing job. Growth means every part of the funnel must be looked at. This is the main difference between traditional marketing and growth marketing.

Traditional marketing involves advertisements, newsletters, and various ways to get the message out, trying to get customers to us. Once we get them aware of Jotform, that sort of hands the baton over to you a little bit and you continue that.

Exactly. Hopefully, we get them to sign up and become paid users. That's an important distinction to make, which a lot of people probably aren't aware of. The growth team here is huge, way bigger than our marketing team, which tells a lot about what has to go into getting the user to that final stage.

What does it entail overseeing all of growth at Jotform? How big is that team?

It's right now in the north of 90 people, 19 teams, as opposed to about 20 in marketing. It makes sense because we have a huge funnel with more than 70 million impressions looking at us across hundreds of thousands of URLs. To run this complicated huge funnel in a data-driven manner, we also have a 50-person data team. We're not guessing; we're using real data.

It takes different expertise from people with different backgrounds and insights so we can control and improve this funnel. I like to see it as a game of passing a bucket full of water to the next guy. Every movement spills some water, so it needs to move smoothly. The journey is big and the world is crowded and noisy because of competition and distractions.

It's a 24-hour job because users are everywhere. Every funnel is similar: they click on a website, sign up, start using the product, but every user is different. That's why we have to be that crowd. For me, it's an experience I really enjoy because it's mainly about the user, trying to convince them. Hard sells don't work here; it's about finding common ground and making them enjoy what you do. When they enjoy it, they become active users.

It's a fun job even though it's busy and takes long hours. Everybody on the floor really enjoys it because of this approach.

You're an expert in every single function and team responsibility as VP of growth. Are you more hands-on or steering the ship from a high level?

I have to be in the leads of some teams. You need hands-on experience to make some decisions. Without it, decisions may not be reachable or could steer the team wrongly. You cannot have enough information to run hands-on, but something is clear to everyone: we are a data-driven company with a common thread and clear North Star metrics.

We know the funnel and which parts need tinkering, improvement, or help. With some teams, I work hands-on, but you cannot be there all the time. You need to look at the big picture, and the big picture is data-driven. You trust your teams to do a good job with oversight. We have amazing people here at Jotform.

You're so focused on the user funnel that we've talked about. Can you dive deeper into what that funnel is?

It's an expertise question mainly for growth marketers. We look at pirate metrics: awareness, activation, retention, revenue, and so forth, plus the resurrection funnel. Every part of the funnel is handled by different teams active in different stages. It starts with millions or tens of millions and goes down. Each stage represents the user journey.

Users may land on a blog post or video among thousands of assets we generate monthly with different mindsets. Some users arrive more informed, some with hesitations like no budget or different priorities. Even the time of day they arrive affects the emotional buying process. Some take longer, some have urgent needs. This causes dropouts or users going to competitors.

There are thousands of reasons, but having a big team means we have many eyes on millions of users flowing in monthly. We try to understand them one by one, profile each, and give them a tailored Jotform experience so they get real value as fast as possible. That's a big task.

Every user story is different: where they encounter Jotform, their mood, if they're actively looking for a form solution, or recall it later. You never know where you'll get them. The funnel starts wide with impressions, then some click through, some sign up, some convert to paid users, getting smaller each time. That's expected, but the goal is to optimize and get as many as possible to the next stage.

Marketing and growth align in that regard, but growth carries it all the way through, which is a key distinction. This is a huge scope for growth marketing.

From a personal developmental perspective, what was your background that led you into this role? Have you always been a marketer or a developer?

Funny story: life had me become a product manager first. Going back, I started as a developer. I'm an electrical and electronics engineer. I found startups exited, sold, or failed. I became a product manager because there was a need, dealing with technical stuff. I enjoyed product management because you represent the user inside the company and vice versa outside. You need to be talented in business, product, and user sides.

I started as a developer implementing products for startups with VC funding, but the product bit was missing and needed professional handling, so I got MBAs. Over the years, I rolled up my sleeves to deal with things not properly handled before. I've done product management for over 10 years prior to this role, launching products and penetrating new markets. I've worked with talented product marketing managers worldwide and consulted Fortune 500 companies.

Growth marketing was a natural evolution because you can have the best product but if nobody knows, it won't work, and vice versa. Both sides have to work hard. Many on the growth floor come from engineering backgrounds. For example, our head of content and channel marketing guys are electrical engineers who organically built into what they do today.

Some might say that's a different skill set: doing the actual work as an engineer versus transitioning into leadership and overseeing. Those comfortable with that pivot rise to the top because they're familiar with the process. Coming from a product background makes a lot of sense because any product launch requires awareness of the entire funnel, which is a microcosm of growth marketing.

Why Jotform? You've tried different ventures and startups and been a consultant. What made you say you want to be here?

It's mainly about the environment and ambitions the company gives you. I've been to startups, multinational Fortune 500 companies, but the ambition here is unmatched. Jotform is the number one place I've seen. Everybody here is very ambitious and tries to excel in what they do, constantly improving autonomously. I joined with 15 years in my career, and I still learn new things every day from unexpected places because people want to improve themselves.

The environment is very ambitious and self-improving. That was the number one driver for me to join. What I saw after joining exceeded what was explained to me.

From my perspective, at the time of recording, we're in the last day of Jotformers week, where employees from 26 countries come to Ankara, Turkey, for collaboration and unification around our sign launch. Meeting all these people and hearing presentations gives me chills. These people are truly talented and driven by their own accord. The culture is great, partly because we're bootstrapped and not forcibly growing to satisfy investors. We're meeting our own needs and making the best products. It's a really cool environment to work in and expand.

Let's pivot a bit. We've gone over your role with growth marketing and what it entails. What is the secret to great growth marketing from your perspective?

It's very obvious: you need to understand the user. Some might argue you need to be data-centric, which is true, but the secret flavor is understanding why users are here, their pain points, and why they read your blog in the first place. For example, a famous shoe company started marketing by targeting people searching for pain relief for their feet before they searched for shoes. They knew that addressing the pain was the start of the journey, not just selling shoes.

New people start Jotform every week. We explain growth marketing to newcomers with examples like buying a headset. You search online, ask friends, read reviews, get it fixed, or get insurance. There's an entire journey before ending with your current headset. Even though we live 8,000 kilometers apart, the journey is similar. The secret is to understand every stage, be there all the time, and help people rather than hard selling.

For example, your blog shouldn't just try to sell but solve users' problems with or without your product. Helping users builds trust and they turn more into customers. This builds trust with users.

A lot of our content is geared toward helping people in general, which is important for building user trust and encouraging them to come back and take the next step, like signing up. The shoe example shows how the funnel can be even wider by targeting people with aches rather than just those looking for shoes.

Freemium is the greatest part that plays a role in the twist. For Jotform and any product, free is probably the most important package because it removes barriers for users trying to get to you. Our free package is strong and includes many products. We don't hide products behind tiers. It allows users to test the product without forcing them to share credit card info or trials.

Hundreds of thousands use our free package, some for more than a decade. We never ask for money; we're happy to help. Eventually, some convert, and if not, we're still fans of the freemium policy. You never know what that could trickle into because users might mention it to others. Building trust and finding a common thread with users is key.

When looking for headphones, we probably do the same thing, and understanding that is important. What are some of the biggest challenges in this fast-moving SaaS environment?

There are new trends every day, and staying on top is hard. You need eyes everywhere and to hear about everything. Everyone tries something new, so you always need to stay on top of competition. Product is the main driver, but you also need better content, videos, and SEO. The world is getting more crowded with competition, and barriers to entry are lowered for SaaS companies, creating hustle.

We're kind of the market leader, so we try to top our own game rather than just looking at competition. We try to compete with ourselves, improving every month. To achieve this, you need to renew and improve yourself constantly. Another challenge is the post-COVID era, which brought turmoil and a different landscape. The world is transitioning out of COVID with many unknowns, so we watch closely and adapt.

The biggest challenge is improving what we do compared to previous time frames. We are our biggest competition.

We take pride in our products, building everything from the ground up without buying products. Every year, we want to top what we did before, creating healthy competition within ourselves. Adapting to fast-moving market trends is key because barriers to entry are low and many companies can enter the market. Innovation is necessary to stay in the game.

We've been a company for 16 years, and you've been here for years. We started mostly catering to small businesses and solopreneurs but have organically drawn more enterprise-level businesses. What distinction is there between growth marketing for small businesses and enterprise corporations?

There are similarities, but many enterprise users come from our freemium plan. Users start with a free plan, upgrade, and become enterprise users. However, reaching users for the first time is a different game because buyer personas, user journeys, and product models differ. For freemium, the buyer persona is generally the user, making it an easier conversation and product-led growth.

For enterprise, buyer personas and beneficiaries differ, making messaging more complex. The rising price range means explaining benefits is more important, and messages need to be delivered through different mediums. A solopreneur uses the product themselves, but in big enterprises, multiple people from marketing to finance are involved, making the buying journey longer and more complex.

This means keeping a perfect experience throughout the long journey. Spending is higher because the timeframe is longer. There's a good connection between self-serve and enterprise users. When users get closer to enterprise, messaging and communication change. We have business development, sales developers, customer success people, and a dedicated department overseeing such companies, plus an enterprise product team.

We're growing fast and putting high efforts into enterprise growth, making it a big priority. We try to explain the benefits of using Jotform as an organization because forms are not a single person's journey. Data collected must be read by others. More products and templates create a connected experience starting with forms, onboarding more people and turning them into organizations using Jotform, which is the point of converting them into enterprise users.

Some users from the early days who didn't have enterprise accounts want to upgrade for dedicated support, more users, and connected environments. Most enterprise users initially came from free plans, working their way up over years realizing they needed more. Even though it gets more complex, the common thread is understanding the user and meeting corporate needs with an end-to-end solution.

Jotform has evolved into an end-to-end solution where you can do much more with collected data through apps, tables, approval flows, and Jotform sign. It's incredible to see the growth machine targeting larger corporations while never leaving behind the small users.

Earlier you mentioned North Star metrics. How do you know you've succeeded? What are your metrics for success?

I cannot disclose the North Star metric because it would give broad scopes, but there are many sub-metrics that drive it. We compete with ourselves and always want to drive the NSM as high as possible. We don't have a culture of stopping after reaching a goal. If we achieve 100% growth rate, we want more. Improving ourselves in terms of NSM and everything we do is key. We are a data-centric organization, and everything built creates additional metrics that push up the NSM.

Every day, I open that metric first thing to check how we did yesterday. Every team lead does the same for their metrics, aligned to drive the eventual NSM.

NSM stands for North Star Metric. We use many abbreviations because the job requires it.

I love how you keep coming back to the data-driven approach. We have the North Star metric and many smaller metrics leading up to it. It's about hard numbers, not guessing. This helps guide the ship with confidence, knowing we're doing the best we can.

You have a huge responsibility and you kill it. I've worked with you for many months and it's impressive how you wrangle the ship and help with product launches. It takes a toll on your life but you clearly have passion for it. What is your favorite part about what you do?

I really like how busy I am. I enjoy it because it makes you develop yourself. You don't have time to scratch your head; you're constantly hustling. Iron sharpens iron. That's what I like most. You don't feel tired because you enjoy being busy. It develops you, gives you a chance to improve, learn new stuff, and be in touch with everybody. If it goes well, we move the ship even further than where we are now. That's the part I like most.

In the right environment, all that busyness is energizing instead of draining.

There's a nice poetry to being VP of growth and still invested in your own growth.

Is there anything else related to growth marketing or anything else we've talked about that you'd like to share before we end?

For those interested in growth marketing, I really believe Jotform is one of the flagship smart marketers. We produce a lot of content every month. Some team processes and organizations we have in-house are unique to Jotform. Over time, other companies rebuild things we created and solve problems we had six months ago. That's when you know you're a market leader.

Being a bootstrap company makes everybody bootstrap in what they do. They're not forced to grow but grow organically. We hire, train, learn from users, and end up with a unique organization nobody else has. When you see others doing what you did years ago, you know you're doing something right.

It's incredible to be part of this growth machine focused on growth in the right way, which is an important distinction. It's been wonderful to have you on and get insight into what goes into making this growth machine. I hope users take away meaningful insights. It's all about understanding the user.

Let us know how that works for you. Balut, thank you so much for your time today. It's been awesome to have you on the show.